[00:04:06]
Yeah. That’s a powerful point that you made about leadership, setting the tone for the entire organization. I can really appreciate your emphasis on executives needing to be visible champions and those who actually model those safety behaviors rather than sitting back in the office and, and telling you what to do. But actually showing people how to get in there and be safe in and on the job site. It reminds me that safety culture isn’t just created through policies, but through consistent actions and accountability at all levels.

So, speaking of all levels, I’d love to hear your thoughts on the frontlines. How can frontline workers be encouraged to take ownership of safety beyond compliance and what strategies have you seen work particularly well when it comes to transitioning to digital systems? 

Yeah, you know, frontline workers are people, and people can sniff out phony, fraudulent behavior, like when we’re putting on an act at times. And so I think it kind of goes back to the first question to a degree of just making sure we’re all doing what we say is important; we actually live that out. But I think frontline workers definitely take ownership when they feel heard and when they are empowered to act.

I’ve said this in the past: to me, one of the greatest negative impacts on a safety culture is what I would call “crickets.” Where I’m encouraging employees, “If you see something, say something.” Well, if they do that, and in their mind it is a pretty significant concern: call it an unsafe act of some sort, call it a condition, or maybe they’re new enough where they don’t really understand the procedure and so it feels out of control. But if they say something and they get no feedback at all that’s pretty damaging. I mean, again, back to the first question, if I speak up because I’m asked to and nobody follows back up with me, it’s really sending the culture in the wrong direction.

However, when frontline workers do receive feedback and recognize that, “gosh, when I raise my hand and say something, it may be a legitimate concern.” Maybe there’s a scenario that has evolved on this particular day that is concerning. Let’s get that addressed. Or I raise my hand and I have a question about the task, and maybe it’s just that I don’t know how to do this. And so when you do get immediate feedback, that is really important. It’s important that it’s not delayed, it’s not days if not weeks after I raised my hand with an issue—but real-time feedback, coaching, whatever it is, I think that’s a big springboard moment for frontline workers, because they’re going to understand the power that they do have.

I think when it comes to taking ownership, you know, not only when they feel heard, but also when they are celebrated for calling something out, I think is a big important factor. We talk about stop work authority, and I know in many industries, in the oil field for sure, it’s a bit of a taboo thing to say, “We’re going to stop this job and pull a stop card because something is out of whack.” And most people think, “well, that’s just going to slow the operation down” or “we’ve gotta get this job done,” or whatever the case might be.

But when that does happen, and it might be—going back to just raising my hand with a concern—it might be a simple coaching moment of, “Yeah, no, this is right and it’s good and here’s why.”

But every frontline worker not only has the opportunity, but I would almost say the obligation to have that empowerment to stop a job when they feel like something is not right. Oftentimes those might take a minute or two to actually make sure we’re all square and let’s continue with the job. But I would say, long-winded answer to your question, I think feeling heard and recognizing that they are empowered to act, to raise their hand to say something, definitely fosters that culture and can lead to some real change.

In terms of kind of moving that to a digital experience: I think having frontline workers involved early is important. Getting early input and feedback is important. Talking about the transition to digital systems. That to me feels like when you’re dealing with safety or technology, that’s when you’re going to get pushback from employees. It’s just one more app we’ve gotta engage with, or one more safety task that’s going to slow us down.

But if you can get some buy-in early that helps, I think early buy-in happens in my mind in two places. One, it’s before we even get started, like what are those things that we can engage the frontline team and all the way up to the management level, and just have conversations: what to expect, what we want to get out of it. Let’s get some feedback. How is this going to impact our day-to-day? Like, let’s actually have some dialogue about it.

But then two, I think frontline workers, if from an implementation standpoint, if we can kind of hone in on what are some pain points that they have that this digital opportunity is going to relieve from them. So, you know, if there’s a task that—I use this as an example sometimes—like I fill out a form and it’s a piece of paper, well, that paper has to somehow get back to the office.

Am I driving that back to the office? Am I having to fill it out, and it takes me time? And then I’m having to pass that through multiple channels to get back where it belongs so it can be data entered and recorded? There’s just a lot of log jam and really a lot of potential for that to just fall through the cracks and never get reported. Versus what can we can do when we swap that process out with something that’s going to take them three minutes. It’s easy, it’s simple, it’s done.

They don’t have to drive extra miles to go back to the yard. They don’t have this, “I gotta go meet up with so and so to hand off my paperwork for the day.” It’s all moving in this paperless environment, and it gives me my own time back where maybe I’m able to leave the job, you know, 15 minutes earlier than I would’ve otherwise, whatever the case is.

So I think if, during a digital rollout, involving employees early and getting feedback, then they feel it’s not just sprung on them. They feel part of the conversation early, and then when you can resolve a pain point for them, they, in my mind, not only do they recognize that, but they’re going to come with the next idea of, “Oh, have we thought about this? This would really be helpful.” And then you really get some true buy-in to moving into a digital world.

[00:11:13]
I couldn’t agree more in terms of empowerment being key, that early adoption being key, like you mentioned the whole crickets idea. I’m sure that saying something and feeling like you’ve been ignored could be incredibly disheartening.

Why would you say something again, if nothing’s ever followed up on, So I can see how when those in the front line actually feel their input leading to meaningful change, that’s when real ownership can take root because they know that participating and saying something actually meant that there was some action.

I’m particularly interested too on how involving the team early in the rollout of digital tools can also really help those things take root. So, on that note of reinforcement and bringing people in early, what are some practical ways organizations can kind of reinforce safety culture on a daily basis? Starting the day with safety and making sure it’s part of everyone’s day, especially when transitioning from paper-based systems to digital safety processes?

Yeah, I think that leaders for sure would recognize this. You don’t arrive at “Safety,” you know. It’s not like you come to this place and it’s like, “oh my gosh, look, we’re safe, like we’ve done it.” It really is a daily part of work for sure, but even just kind of like living life. I think when we’re all, you know, on vacation or out with family on a weekday night or the weekend, we’re mindful of how we’re driving and we’re cautious about this, that, and the other.

So, just reinforcing that on a daily basis is hugely important. The minute that slips, we’re sliding:  whether it’s we’re oblivious to our surroundings and it’s not part of the conversation, or we’re not putting it top of mind for anybody. Complacency is a really dangerous place to work where folks say, “yeah, yeah, yeah, let’s just get on with it, that’s never happened, it’s probably not going to be an issue.” Like if that’s the vibe of how we’re starting our day, we’re setting ourselves up for something unwanted to happen potentially.

I even think if you’re just planting an eye dropper’s worth of information into somebody’s mind, it’s going to resonate for a while. And you don’t want an eye dropper’s worth of safety discussion in the morning, but you know, if you’re taking the time, call it five, ten, fifteen minutes, whatever it is, it’s not only efficiency in how are we going to protect ourselves and our assets, our reputation, the quality of the work we’re going to do today, but also just the efficient way we’re going to go about it.

Like we want to be done, we want to start on time, we want to finish on time. The customer expects this. All of those things come into play, and safety’s just part of that discussion. So I do feel that safety is an adjective. It’s just going to describe how we’re going to do what we’re going to do today, and let’s make sure we’re ready in the event of an emergency: “who’s got first aid and CPR?” “Okay, you do, that’s great.” We’re going to have some conversations around what could go wrong, and let’s make sure we’re all dialed in so we know what to do if and when it does.

So having those daily discussions, I mean, this could be a whole podcast in and of itself, I think it’s just really, really important. And it is a thread from a culture perspective that weaves throughout not only day-to-day, but hour-to-hour. It needs to be something that’s just top of mind across the board.

When transitioning from paper to digital processes, you kind of change the game a little bit along the way, and it goes back to a question earlier about a piece of paper floating around versus a digital submission, because one, I’m fulfilling my end. I’m observing, I’m aware of my surroundings and I’m reporting. We want what the eyes and ears experience on the frontline. That’s how we’re going to improve and that’s how we’re going to prevent something down the road.

You’ve got this obligation element of, I’m filling out the paper and I’m doing that, but then what does the flipside of that look like? So rather than a piece of paper floating around from person to person to person, hopefully landing on a desk of somebody who can read it and take action if there really is concern, the digital transition allows that to be real-time information sharing.

So whether it’s a push notification to an app, whether it’s an email in my inbox, if I see that, “oh my goodness, somebody just reported this, what are we doing about it?” It’s a safety concern and it doesn’t do us any good to fix it in three weeks. It’s a situation that the team is involved with now. “How do we get a resource out to them? How do we switch out that equipment? How do we get an extra set of eyes?” How do we do whatever needs to be done in the moment to correct that particular scenario?

And so I think once you’re in that digital world, the way information moves, you can make others aware of concerning elements of what’s going on, and it also allows you to take real-time action. And that goes back to the first question of seeing leaders responding, providing feedback, offering help in minutes, not days or weeks. That’s a significant boost in a safety culture.

And how do you actually measure the heartbeat of a culture? And it’s tough, but it’s done through people really. I mean, I think at the end of the day, moving to a digital safety process is a tremendous tool, and it’s an absolute springboard for you, but ultimately, you know, culture is eyeball to eyeball or voice to ear. It’s going to be humans interacting with one another that’s going to build, strengthen, or even inhibit a culture from being good. So just the daily reinforcement and then just really what does that look like when it moves into a digital opportunity.

[00:18:01]
Yeah, I love the emphasis you put on consistency there. I’m sure those daily discussions and visibility from leadership in those daily discussions can embed safety into someone’s workday routine. And your point too about, using digital tools to reduce friction, rather than add to it, I think is a critical way to think about it because, I’m sure everyone wants to reduce the friction of having to check something off. In the safety world, a lot of these are mandated forms that need to be filled out.

But if you are able to reframe it, like you said, thinking about safety as an adjective, hopefully it gives a little bit more credence to how this is helping you too. It’s not just something you have to check off. And now it’s easier for you to do too.

So I’m curious about the flipside. In your experience working with various companies, what are the most common barriers to a successful safety culture transition? But do you have any tips on those barriers and how they can be overcome?

Yeah, you know, we all come to the table with our own experiences and biases and all of those kinds of things. So when we’re working with workers, many times they’ve come from other employers, and so they’re bringing in: good habits and bad habits and bad attitudes and good attitudes and all those kinds of things.

So that just makes me think how oftentimes there is a barrier that is just distrust. Whether they’ve been burned with a situation in the past or there’s been some negative, you know, with the safety team, the management team, and the frontline worker. And so I think the lack of trust can be concerning, especially when—and this exists—an organization is more about checking boxes than protecting people.

And workers, I mean, we all can sense when that’s going on, you know? I think the visible, active environment in which we’re working and where people are interacting, like, we’re going to be able to call out a phony when it’s there.

And if it’s paper or if it’s a digital transformation and there’s a lack of trust, there’s a lack of trust, and people just aren’t going to buy-in. You don’t really believe what you say, and you certainly don’t act on it.

So I think a big barrier is trust. And then I think also just poor communication in general.

And this isn’t unique to anybody, you know? I mean, how well are we communicating change, what to expect, the why of why? I think if people get behind ‘the why’ we’re doing something, then ‘the how’ just follows suit.

“We’re doing this because this is why we want to protect this.” We want to have that conversation and communicate effectively. And then this is how we’re going to go about doing it again when it comes from the mouths of the leaders who back it up with their actions. I think you can knock down just about any barrier with a matter of time, a matter of people seeing that, “yeah, it does matter, and people are taking action on my behalf.” So those are just a few that come to mind.

[00:21:20]
Yeah. And I think that kind of ties back into your crickets analogy. I can see how trust would be absolutely foundational here because, like you said, if someone’s been burned or if they’ve said something and nothing has come of it, how are they going to trust that anything’s going to change in the future?

So I can see how, when people on the front line sense that safety initiatives are just box checking exercises rather than genuine concern for their wellbeing, engagement would naturally suffer. And I can see how communication during digital transitions can kind of make or break that whole effort. And your point about, Involving employees and explaining the why of changes, resonates really strongly.

That leads me to think about measurement. Can you give some tips on how companies should measure the success of their safety culture initiatives? And beyond just traditional leading and lagging indicators, are there other specific leading indicators that correlate with digital adoption?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I’m not like a big quota guy. Like, “you need to fill out this, you need to do two observations a month.”

I mean, you certainly could go that route, but I think back when we first moved from a paper reporting process to digital, to what KPA Flex is today. We promoted a behavior-based safety program where we encouraged reporting of leading indicators, so observations and near misses. Like, “what are you seeing that could have not been a good situation and could’ve easily led to an incident, but didn’t?” We want to learn from the non-mistakes but the where environment was one that could have been a problem.

So we had observation cards that we would distribute out, and they were hard carbon copy. So you fill it out and you hand it to your supervisor, and they work themselves back up. I bet at best through a year’s worth of that program, I might have had 50 of them that landed on my desk. And that’s out of 1200 employees!

I’m sure that there were a lot more that existed that just never made it in. They’re probably in a McDonald’s sack thrown away with lunch, right? Like, did they actually make it to somebody? Well, launching, going digital, putting it on a phone, simple to submit, and receiving the encouragement to continue when you submitted your first one and some recognition and feedback and coaching and all that takes place with that.

Suddenly we were at like a 4000% increase in like the first 90 days. And I mean, you talk about a snowball going downhill, like it just continued to evolve, and that was a huge measuring stick for us to just realize, well, one, we know what’s being reported because we’re seeing it. In the past, it’s ink on paper that we may or may not ever come across.

And then how are we analyzing that? We’re having to data enter that into a spreadsheet, and then what are we doing with that, and the lag time to really recognize what’s going on. Maybe you missed the window and something unwanted happened, right? Like, there’s just kind of that.

So I do think there is a ton of value in just like what do you think you’re getting from a monthly, quarterly, annual standpoint on reports, like near misses, observation reports, anything else that might engage an employee.

Obviously, your incidents are going to kind of bubble to the top, and you’re probably aware of when things go wrong, and you still want and need the reporting for that. But, you know, thinking through what’s the best-case scenario for us to gauge? We want all of this active participation from our employees.

So I think that’s a low-hanging fruit measuring stick to just kind of how are we improving in these areas? And then you could potentially create some incentive or have some like ‘best catch of the month’ or do something that fosters participation. If you feel like we’ve plateaued, we’ve dipped, we’re whatever, well, let’s try to give some reason for it.

There was one operator we worked for who had a really cool observation program, and they gave away a logoed, custom-made hard hat, which was a badge of pride for workers who worked for that operator, that they would be selected as one;  it was a big deal.

And so I think there’s ways that you can encourage participation, but I think really just if you’re just looking at the numbers and you can gauge, you know, you want that trend going up into the right on how many responses are we receiving for near misses and observations. And what about completions on JSAs and toolbox talks and any type of just general hazard reporting or inspections on the job, whether it be, you know, work-related or the equipment or whatever the case might be.

Paper is just a really difficult thing to manage, you know? Versus a couple of clicks of a button, and you’re seeing the trend line just kind of automatically in front of you. So, I think early success can be measured on just numbers of what’s coming in, based on what you feel like you’ve had that same participation in the past.

And then since you never ‘arrive’ from like a safety perspective, I think there’s also always the next opportunity. Like there’s, we’re going to be really good with this and let’s shore that up, but then there’s going to be an ugly baby at some point. And it’s like, okay, well okay, now we need to attack that.

Paper stuff is hard to deploy, whereas with digital you could have something out the door in an hour that’s starting to now impact that other thing that we need to improve on.

So this idea of constant ongoing improvement is critically important. And that just, it’s like going to the gym where you’re just going to build muscle over the course of time, and eventually you’re doing more than you did six months ago. But I think starting with just the small basic like stuff, you’re going to start to measure bigger and bigger and bigger, more impactful things over the course of time.

[00:28:10]
I feel like you gave so many great tidbits in there. One, not only the wild improvement that you saw in terms of response rate and engagement from your employees, switching from paper to digital. Not only because it’s easier to do, but it’s going straight into a system rather than having to make it back to your desk after floating around in a car or a piece of equipment, or like you said in a lunch bag.

I want to get a little more practical: what strategies have you found are most effective for integrating safety software into existing workflows without creating additional burdens for the workers? 

Yeah, I think it’s important to meet workers where they are. Like there may be some that are a little bit further along the way than others, whatever that means. But just meeting them where they are, getting to their comfort level of dealing with technology, the safety world might be new to them. Some of the expectations, some of the procedures that the business goes through to operate, it might be daunting at times, and they feel overwhelmed.

And so I think it’s really important to simplify as much as you can. And so when, if we’re going to fill out a form, there are definite strategies to like, how do we make this as straightforward and simple as possible?

Avoid confusion. I think you can’t make it too simple. We can always build complexity along the way, but I think meeting employees where they’re at, whatever that means, and then pulling them along the way. Because if I can reach the furthest out employee from a safety standpoint, the one that just absolutely doesn’t get it, and I can get everybody in between, then I’m getting everybody, right?

And so, focusing on simplicity is big because again, in the world of many industries, I know construction, oil and gas, things that have urgency to it. Like, “hey, we’re supposed to get this job done in 30 days or in 48 hours,” or whatever it is, there is an element of urgency that oftentimes trips up quality, safety. Some things go by the wayside because we’re so hyper-focused on meeting a deadline and unfortunately, some make the call that at all costs we’re going to get done on time. And that can create a bad situation.

So the minute we throw a complicated, “Hey, I got one more safety thing for you to do before you start, before you finish your shift, during changeover,” whatever it is, you’ve lost them because they’re already feeling the pinch. So simplicity is huge.

And I would argue that moving to a digital platform, you can do more, but at the same time, save operational time. I can, instead of throwing one more piece of paper at you to fill out, I’m throwing three more things at you, but I’m going to reduce the time, overall commitment by 50% by doing it this way.

And so you take less time. That’s a win in the mind of somebody that’s hyper-operations, get-the-job-done focused. And you want, again, not to have a check-the-box mentality because you just want that thought, that pause, that take a five-second breath to have a conversation and now let’s proceed. That in and of itself can really set a positive safety tone to what we’re going to be doing on this particular job.

So, meet workers where they are, have an element of simplicity. Definitely, we will reduce that friction that you have. And then I think as you’re integrating, hands-on training is good.

You know, we’ve actually experienced this. One time we were in an in-person demonstration of KPA Flex, and we were talking with the safety director. Well, there was an employee who had walked down the hallway, and the safety director had downloaded the demo app on his phone. And this employee is walking down the hallway, and he calls him in and says, “Hey, I got a quick question for you.” And he hands the safety director his phone and said, “Hey, can you just go to the KPA Flex and fill out a near-miss form for me?”

That’s all the instruction he gave him. And the guy was able to find the app, click on it, went to forms, found that report, submitted a report, and handed it right back to him. And so like you want to build software that’s just intuitive, that’s going to allow somebody with zero experience to navigate.

But there is a big advantage too, of while we’re all in this room together, get out your phone. We’re just going to walk you through what this is, which will help with adoption overall when they kind of know what this is. Again, going back to the why, here’s the how. We’ve already talked about the why. Log in and let’s just all practice filling out a form: Best one gets a gift card to Starbucks, you know, like whatever it is.

So I think those are all some pretty effective strategies that I’ve seen. And when I’m working with a new customer, I encourage them to find out what are the two initiatives that really are important? Like there are dozens of things that we want to get to, but what are the two that are really important? Let’s simplify those and get some early wins, and then we’ll build on the complexity as we go.

[00:33:49]
I think that’s a great point because especially with the types of industries that we’re in, these are people who are really hands-on and so I can see how meeting workers where they are is such an important principle and I can imagine that forcing major workflow changes alongside new technology could be a recipe for resistance if it’s not done properly. And if it’s not simple enough to be able to do, like in your anecdote, where if you give an instruction to say, find this app and fill out this form, and they’re able to do it without any further instruction, there’s actually not much, technology change there if it seems intuitive. 

So for my final question, I’d like to explore the human dynamics of this. How does the relationship between safety professionals and the operational leadership evolve during a successful digital transformation? And what advice would you give, in order to facilitate this partnership and keep it strong?

That’s a huge question. I love it. You know the personalities of operations and safety professionals and I think that’s a dynamic that has its own persona in any organization. So you see the characteristics all over the place between how these two groups interact  in my mind, the perfect world is when the operational team is the safety professional.

And the safety professional is one that just has top-of-mind of being on the lookout. The days of like Barney one bullet, you know, out there being a mall cop, like, “who am I going to write a ticket to today?” That just doesn’t work. And when operations takes on the responsibility and the ownership of safety, it changes the game completely. And safety professionals can focus in; I mean, they’re not a mall cop anymore. They’ve got their head above the clouds and they’re looking where we’re going next, and also looking at conditions that workers can become oblivious to. They’re the ones that are on the lookout for those situations, and they can be the ones to stop and have conversations and just be coaches.

So how can that evolve during a digital transformation? When you can win operations over by giving them time back.  And by focusing in on, “Hey we have a new initiative. It’s not going to take you an extra five minutes. I’m actually going to reduce your time because we’re also going to do these other things a little bit different.” You’re going to win. You’re going to win them over, you’re going to win them over to the point that they’re going to bring the next idea to you.

And at the end of the day, it’s just moving important information around to people that need to see it and provide information that people can use to make improvements or change.

[00:36:40]
Absolutely. Deren, thank you so much for your time today. Your insights on leadership visibility, frontline empowerment, and frictionless digital adoption really helped our listeners to understand how to build trust during these safety transformations. And the way that you connected safety culture to practical digital strategies gives everyone some actionable steps that they can implement right away. I really appreciate your expertise here. 

My pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

So, we’re thinking about how we can train employees so that when an emergency happens, they go from panic to calculated response more effectively.

We want our employees to respond to a situation where their focus doesn’t become narrow, to just focus on what’s in front of them. Our industry has a lot of risks around it, regardless of whether it’s during an emergency response.

And so doing those more frequent, shorter, smaller drills, is very helpful in increasing the confidence level of our supervisors and leads and our management team so that we’re better prepared for response. So that’s really what the purpose of that is. 

[00:20:56]
David, Zach, this has been such a great conversation. I love how both of you tied safety back to real people and real stories. It’s clear that getting new hires on board with safety isn’t just about compliance. It’s about setting a tone that lasts for their entire career, whether they stay with you at your company or move somewhere else. Thanks again for sharing your insights, and thanks to everyone listening. Stay safe out there.